Can we draw automations?

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UNZ
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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by UNZ »

Dean wrote: peercontrols are limited to transmit data one tick at a time, so full resolution-curve via peer isn't an option
no they are not, there's subtick timing now, and while its not at audio rate, its still a decent resolution for almost any automation.

Dean
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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by Dean »

UNZ wrote:
Dean wrote: peercontrols are limited to transmit data one tick at a time, so full resolution-curve via peer isn't an option
no they are not, there's subtick timing now, and while its not at audio rate, its still a decent resolution for almost any automation.
wow, I feel old now, I guess I haven't updated buzz in a while.
So there's a peer machine in which you can draw these bezier curves now?
(I mean, I know you can "draw" with peerscream, which was already mentioned in this thread,
but since you can't add/drag points I find it difficult to be exact, but maybe I'm using an old version of it... :D)

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UNZ
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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by UNZ »

not that i know of, but thats what people seem to want, and they'd prefer it "native" i guess. altough nowadays one could just make a custom pattern editor for a peer, would work good.

mes
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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by mes »

It would be nice if the automation could be delay compensated for the soundcards buffer latency size. (renoise and logic does this, ableton live doesn't) most programs have plugin delay compensation , but some like ableton don't also compensate the latency on drawn automation ...which makes all your automation curves out of sync if you ever change the buffer size. It becomes a total pain in the ass for anyone who writes music with lots of tight automation and edits.

Dean
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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by Dean »

mes wrote:It would be nice if the automation could be delay compensated for the soundcards buffer latency size. (renoise and logic does this, ableton live doesn't) most programs have plugin delay compensation , but some like ableton don't also compensate the latency on drawn automation ...which makes all your automation curves out of sync if you ever change the buffer size. It becomes a total pain in the ass for anyone who writes music with lots of tight automation and edits.
Buzz supports machine delay compensation.
I've never used it, but even without it working exactly like I imagine, you could just add a delay with your sound card latency figure wherever you want to delay something in regard to something else in a song. It might mean many delays, but if they all share the same figure, it's just a matter of seconds to map it out in the machines view (and simple delays take no cpu power).

mes
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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by mes »

right but I'm talking about the drawn automation itself being delay compensated...not the output of the machines. would that still work? I understand Buzz and other music programs have machine delay compensation, but some don't also take into account the drawn automation when fixing the latency...so all the envelopes end up being off by however many samples/milliseconds the buffer is set to...and even more problems when you have a high latency plugin in the chain before the machine being automated. Ableton Live still has this problem and people have complained about it for years, but Renoise does this properly.
Last edited by mes on Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dean
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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by Dean »

mes wrote:right but I'm talking about the drawn automation itself being delay compensated...not the output of the machines. would that still work? I understand Buzz and other music programs have machine delay compensation, but some don't also take into account the drawn automation when fixing the latency...so all the envelopes end up being off by however many samples/milliseconds the buffer is set to...and even more problems when you have a high latency plugin in the chain before the machine being automated. Ableton Live still has this problem and people have complained about it for years, but Renoise does this properly.
thank you for explaining... I was confused until now.
To delay a peer data signal, we can't use delays (since they are for audio signal) so forget what I wrote earlier...
but if you want to delay a peer signal, can't you just manually start the envelope a bit later?
the peer controllers I use they have triggers or manual lfo settings which you can control a cycle (start/offset, etc) completely.
So, you could use subticks in a peer pattern (for trigger), as a delay. x subticks into pattern, you trigger the envelope - thus the envelope starts x subticks later...
would that work with your desired machine of use?

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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by mes »

This post in the Ableton forum describes the problem I'm talking about pretty well....and has a few pictures to help illustrate, I'm not the best at explaining these things in text. I could probably do it all manually but it kind defeats the purpose of having any delay compensation at all...and then if you ever change the soundcard buffer or add a high latency plugin to the chain you have to go in and manually change everything again...everything would also have to be changed if I open the project on another computer with different latency settings.


http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=129443

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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by Dean »

mes wrote:This post in the Ableton forum describes the problem I'm talking about pretty well....and has a few pictures to help illustrate, I'm not the best at explaining these things in text. I could probably do it all manually but it kind defeats the purpose of having any delay compensation at all...and then if you ever change the soundcard buffer or add a high latency plugin to the chain you have to go in and manually change everything again...everything would also have to be changed if I open the project on another computer with different latency settings.


http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=129443
I see your point, and this inspired a new thread on peer2peer (will post soon).
you could do this semi-auto if peertrigger works for you, but for some reason I can't get it to work now (if
it would work, you could trigger the envelope trigger with the sound of the fx chain in which you want to apply the data, thus making it a match)

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UNZ
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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by UNZ »

samplerate won't be an issue in buzz, you just do it on the subtick.

latency dependance, now thats batshit insane, i dunno what they do to fuck it up that much, no idea why SOUNDCARD latency should even come into play with automations. maybe midi, but then they are just poor and syncing midi events to audio....

mes
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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by mes »

UNZ wrote:samplerate won't be an issue in buzz, you just do it on the subtick.

no idea why SOUNDCARD latency should even come into play with automations. maybe midi,

Exactly what I've always thought, but ableton has suffered from this problem ever since the beginning. even with people complaining it still has never been fixed. So are you saying this wouldn't be a problem in Buzz with drawn automation, because it would be based on ticks or sub-ticks?

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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by Dean »

mes wrote:
UNZ wrote:samplerate won't be an issue in buzz, you just do it on the subtick.

no idea why SOUNDCARD latency should even come into play with automations. maybe midi,

Exactly what I've always thought, but ableton has suffered from this problem ever since the beginning. even with people complaining it still has never been fixed. So are you saying this wouldn't be a problem in Buzz with drawn automation, because it would be based on ticks or sub-ticks?
I'm confused... I thought you were talking from experience that this problem did in fact exist?

mes
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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by mes »

I'm honestly not sure if this problem exists with the current automation, I've never been able to get a clear answer from a dev and haven't tested buzz too much to find out, I don't like the ctrl+g envelopes so I mainly use absynths built-in envelopes since they have bezier curves..my posts were just to make sure this problem wasn't introduced with the new style of automation. I'm starting to think that because it would be tick based that latency wouldn't be an issue at all though...atleast I hope. Sorry If I caused any confusion!

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UNZ
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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by UNZ »

this problem does not exist in buzz if you code everything correct. not even for midi if you use midi synced drivers (like pasio).
what will happen for simple control changes is that sending a controlchangeimmediate will apply on the "next" subtick.

mes
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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by mes »

UNZ wrote:this problem does not exist in buzz if you code everything correct. not even for midi if you use midi synced drivers (like pasio).
what will happen for simple control changes is that sending a controlchangeimmediate will apply on the "next" subtick.


excellent thanks for clearing that up! I'm still amazed that even after 15 years buzz still does a lot of things better than expensive commercial software.

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strobotone
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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by strobotone »

this tool was invented by real nerds.

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AndersBrontosaurus
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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by AndersBrontosaurus »

Bump

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Joachip
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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by Joachip »

Bump failed.

Those who have the time and energy to code this don't know how.
Those who know how to code this don't have the time or energy.

PS: I have nothing to add to this apart from my previous mock-up screenshot with the curves on the F4 page.

polac
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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by polac »

I don't know if it's possible to do this like in Joachip's screenshot in the sequence view. It could be quite easy to do in pattern view however. I have programmed an envelope track for my own sequencer, I could try to port this to Buzz.

rav
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Re: Can we draw automations?

Post by rav »

Oh yeah, that's huge!
Try to add this to sequence view, i believe in you ;)

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