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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:28 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:27 pm
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Location: South-Germany
Hi,
mixing/mastering is a topic I was engaged in the last months, too.

I would like to discuss one important topic, which I wonder to realize in buzz: LOCATION in SPACE beyond L/R panning.

My ideal pragmatic approach would be to have a plugin/machine which computes automatically the sound depending on origin in space. Favourably I could asses the location with a 3D graphical interface. After intense research I have found two free VST plugins which come near to that: Auburn sounds panagement and Sennheiser's AMBEO orbit (s. picture).
So that's the point where I am now, experimenting and checking out how to combine the plugins (also the best chain order).
Both plugings have andvantages. The AMBEO delivers a room and the third dimension (elevation). The Auburn delivers spectral near/far processing and binaural delay.
Of course all that depends on the sound sources, ideally pure synth sound with no room information. It is much more complicated to do that with sampled material.

So my point for discussion is, how do you realize SPACE in buzz? Is it worth do such a big mess or is it often sufficient to pan and turn the width slider (like in MixIO) + reverb?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:22 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:25 pm
Posts: 420
I use kibibu's revolver, it seems to be spatialization tool, but I don't know what is revolver, a sort of very short delay? I've no idea :?
Thanks for the vst.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:37 pm 
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Location: South-Germany
tinga wrote:
I use kibibu's revolver, it seems to be spatialization tool, but I don't know what is revolver, a sort of very short delay? I've no idea :?
Thanks for the vst.


Bang - and there was space. :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:52 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:45 pm
Posts: 302
Not a native Buzz machine but maybe look into the Oculus Spatializer VST that allows both positioning AND spatialization:

Image

https://developer.oculus.com/downloads/ ... r-daw-win/


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:35 am 
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Hi mcbpete,

great link. I downloaded and tried it. looks great. Space is good and position dimensions are in 3D!
I don't know what algorithms they use. In general they describe in the developer kit:

Code:
Distance Modeling
HRTFs help us identify a sound’s direction, but they do not model our localization of distance. Humans use several factors to infer the distance to a sound source. These can be simulated with varying degrees of accuracy and cost in software:
-Loudness, our most reliable cue, is trivial to model with simple attenuation based on distance between the source and the listener.
-Initial Time Delay is significantly harder to model, as it requires computing the early reflections for a given set of geometry, along with that geometry’s characteristics. This is both computationally expensive and awkward to implement architecturally (specifically, sending world geometry to a lower level API is often complex). Even so, several packages have made attempts at this, ranging from simple “shoebox models” to elaborate full scene geometric modeling.
-Direct vs. Reverberant Sound (or, in audio production, the “wet/dry mix”) is a natural byproduct of any system that attempts to accurately model reflections and late reverberations. Unfortunately, such systems tend to be very expensive computationally. With ad hoc models based on artificial reverberators, the mix setting can be adjusted in software, but these are strictly empirical models.
-Motion Parallax we get “for free,” because it is a byproduct of the velocity of a sound source.
-High Frequency Attenuation due to air absorption is a minor effect, but it is also reasonably easy to model by applying a simple low-pass filter, and by adjusting cutoff frequency and slope. In practice, HF attenuation is not very significant in comparison to the other distance cues.


Did you try to build a "stage" with it?
It should be able to handle multiple inputs (as indicated by the PVST input channel numbers). But perhaps it works only with Rift installed.
Well, I can process only one channel simultaneously, yet.

Manual:
https://developer.oculus.com/documentat ... ok-os-vst/

EDIT: Aah, very special. Think the right way is just to open multiple instances. It then recognises the different tracks (see coloured balls in pic)
Attachment:
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:52 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:45 pm
Posts: 302
Yeah I really like Plugins that 'talk' to other instances of themselves - Definitely makes life easier !


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:48 am 
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Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:27 pm
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I tested further in a more complex/vst song setup.

Well, the results are a bit disappointing:

Oculus: Distorted, only mono accepted.
Sennheiser: Only one instance work well, then I get timing issues/distortions.
Auburn: Good sound. Every instance is processed solo.

So, still no single stage plugin. The oculus could be, but does not work for me reliable.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:17 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 4:10 am
Posts: 47
There is also SpaceVR from Ina-GRM:

https://inagrm.com/en/showcase/news/598/nouveaux-spaces
(free download near the bottom)

It is a bit CPU intensive and fiddly to set up, but it takes up to 32 stereo inputs. Each stereo input corresponds to two "speakers," which you can place anywhere you like in 3D space. The speaker layout doesn't get saved in the .bmx, unfortunately, so you'd have to save that separately and reload it each time you open a song.

I use Precedence by 2CAudio, which sounds equally convincing on headphones and stereo speakers. It's one plugin per position though, so if you're trying to keep track of everything in one place, it's not so convenient (and now that the introductory sale is over, it's also way too expensive):

https://www.2caudio.com/products/precedence

Sounds great, though.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:13 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:27 pm
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Location: South-Germany
Hi nathansnider,

yeah, great links, too. Thanx!
SpaceVR does the job! (s. pic for a song with more complex setup) wanted to post a video but couldn't capture the audio.
It is capable of handle stereo input (L/R speaker pairs for each instrument, assuming a perfect stereo recording of the samples and a given mic distance!). Sometimes mono only, a bug? Restart buzz helps.
I check out if I can have a good hi-fi mix with it.

2c precedence sounds great as you said. Maybe the best sound quality so far. Demo only. Single instances have some advantages, too for post processing for each channel.

Attachment:
SpaceVRstage.jpg
SpaceVRstage.jpg [ 66.46 KiB | Viewed 241 times ]


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:36 pm 
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to be complete, just 2 more: ;)

http://www.vst4free.com/free_vst.php?pl ... er&id=2389
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http://www.vst4free.com/free_vst.php?pl ... tor&id=887
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:50 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:27 pm
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Location: South-Germany
with new search terms I have found something new,
wow, unfortunately, no more available:

It's a french production, perhaps somebody still has it on his/her HDD?
Ah, its not free I think.

https://www.kvraudio.com/product/h3d-by ... chnologies
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:30 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:54 pm
Posts: 161
Location: Faraway but near enough
Dear all, have a Look at this Link:

http://acousmodules.free.fr

I have got some of the effects for years now.

1. You won't be disappointed.
2. You won't need anything Else.
3. Unbelievable what you can get for free.

I just wonder why only a few people know this site. ..., now you know it too ;)

Have a lot of fun trying all these fine plugs ... :dance:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:05 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:45 pm
Posts: 302
Wow, those look pretty darn comprehensive - thank you !


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:17 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:27 pm
Posts: 127
Location: South-Germany
Buzztler wrote:
Dear all, have a Look at this Link:

http://acousmodules.free.fr

I have got some of the effects for years now.

1. You won't be disappointed.
2. You won't need anything Else.
3. Unbelievable what you can get for free.

I just wonder why only a few people know this site. ..., now you know it too ;)

Have a lot of fun trying all these fine plugs ... :dance:



Jesus, Buzztler, what a collection! :shock:
To be honest, I would be happy if you could please recommend some of them ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:30 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:03 am
Posts: 117
Location: Canada
Now that I see those, I remembered that I have all those acoustamodules on my HDD. Never use them, but I should one of these days. Thanks for reminding me, Buzztler :dance:

See You In The Shadows…


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:21 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:25 pm
Posts: 420
Rymix 3DBox buzz effect, spin, elevation, distance, I never tried it before but seems to be good.
Acousmodules are cool if you have a multi out sound card, and 8 or more speakers.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:42 am 
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Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:27 pm
Posts: 127
Location: South-Germany
tinga wrote:
Rymix 3DBox buzz effect, spin, elevation, distance, I never tried it before but seems to be good.
Acousmodules are cool if you have a multi out sound card, and 8 or more speakers.


ah. didnt know that buzz effect. thanx! in the description is mentioned that it works with headphones only. i check it out


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