AMD or Intel

boombaxx
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AMD or Intel

Post by boombaxx »

My computer is getting a bit old based on the P35 intel with a q8300 4gb of ram which it is stuck at because of the motherboard. I am either going to go for a Core i5 or the latest FX 8 core. Would it make a difference having the 8 cores over the 4 of the i5. Anyone used these

http://www.aria.co.uk/SuperSpecials/Oth ... ctId=55830

http://www.aria.co.uk/SuperSpecials/Oth ... ctId=52722

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UNZ
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Re: AMD or Intel

Post by UNZ »

i would go with intel, 4 faster cores are probably better for buzz than 8 slower ones.

the fact that amd's top of the line has to be compared to an i5 and not an i7 should also tell you something...

also buzz is developed on intel as far as i know, that might result in a slight advantages in optimizations for that architecture. and with the current state of AMD in general i wouldn't be surprised if plugin manufacturers don't put a lot of time into optimizing for AMD's arch either.

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Joachip
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Re: AMD or Intel

Post by Joachip »

Tough one. Most CPU benchmarks don't pay very much attention to FPU stuff these days, which is bad for us audio guys because we rely very much on FPU performance. I did find some relevant info though:

http://jonpeddie.com/reviews/comments/r ... -a10-4600m
We also ran the FPU Mandel benchmark; this benchmark measures the double precision (also known as 64-bit) floating-point performance through the computation of several frames of the popular “Mandelbrot” fractal.

The final AIDA64 benchmark we used to calculate the performance of our processors was the FPU SinJulia, This benchmark measures the extended precision (also known as 80-bit) floating-point performance through the computation of a single frame of a modified “Julia” fractal. The AMD A10 was outperformed by 1.73% in this test.
Here's another benchmark of FPU performance, which renders fractals. This is another good example of how little relevance benchmarks can have, as fractal rendering is VERY easy to distribute over all the CPU cores. Audio software, becuase it's a real-time (and often serial) process, is way too often limited to one or two cores, so the number of cores is typically not relevant. It's the per-core floating point performance we're after, so the following test is of limited value:

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/am ... ew,15.html

Image

mridlen
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Re: AMD or Intel

Post by mridlen »

I have an i7-2600 at work and it is more powerful than my home computer, which is a AMD 1090T. But real world performance in Buzz... they are about the same as far as CPU usage goes. NEED MOAR POWER :(

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UNZ
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Re: AMD or Intel

Post by UNZ »

note that the chart there has a PREVIOUS generation i5 beat the AMD already. And power consumption on the AMD one is just ridiculous. FLOPS per core is better on the intel side too, the amd doesn't even support the latest AVX2 instructions.
and look at how much hardware AMD has to throw at intel to even get close: cranking the clockspeed to 4.2ghz (1 ghz more than the intel...), 8 cores, 16MB (L2 + L3) resulting in 125W TDP, and they still don't manage to beat the i5 (a midrange intel part) with its 65W (!) TDP. i5 does the same/more with half the power requirement. Ridiculous... Image

boombaxx
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Re: AMD or Intel

Post by boombaxx »

Look like intel then always used intel anyway. I could go an alternate route by buying a secondhand i7 something like the 2600k or 3770k which squeezes into my budget. But that means buying into a dead end format or i could find that intel changes it socket again if i buy the latest. And end up with a dead end format. I,ll have to do more research bit like trying to buy a ferrari for mondeo money :ugeek:

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UNZ
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Re: AMD or Intel

Post by UNZ »

i would forget about future socket compatibility to be honest. by the time your cpu is outdated all the other components will need a bump too. i have a i7 2600k myself, and i dont think i'm going to put a new cpu in this mainboard ever in the next 3-5 or so years (the cpu is just AWESOME). And by then its time to build a new box anyway.

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Re: AMD or Intel

Post by oskari »

If anyone has recently upgraded and has an extra 2600k, 2700k or 3770k I might be interesting in buying it (need one for my server machine).

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HerrFornit
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Re: AMD or Intel

Post by HerrFornit »

As the new CPU design of intel is there with performance and erfficieny cores I ask my self if there is any experience in the buzz community (with buzz and the new CPU design). If so, I am happy if you share it here :)
I think Intel has still some single core advantage, what is a bit more important fur rapid plugin processing. (?)

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UNZ
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Re: AMD or Intel

Post by UNZ »

11 years have passed since my comment on going intel rather than amd, and i'm quite happy to say that nowadays they both give you amazing bang for bucks, competition is finally back and amd is able to compete very very nicely! they really dropped the ball a decade ago, but came back with a vengeance since ryzen! i still went intel this time, but only because i wanted AVX512. AMD will have this in the new ryzen too (and no, buzz machines will not use that yet).

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HerrFornit
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Re: AMD or Intel

Post by HerrFornit »

Hi UNZ,
long time ago.... thanx for returning to this threat ;)
Do you mean Ryzen7000 (new AVX512). I remember in an earlier threat, that you mention that even VST plugins hardly use it, but nice to have anyway of course. For me, BUZZ and VST is as important, too. MOst VSTs are optimized for Intel? Yes, next new CPU is hard to decide. I think what is important for timing is the mainboard anyway, perhaps thats the more delicate problem.
Concerning to the new Intel CPU design (12000 and 13000) I am wondering if there is any issue handling the diffrent types of cores by BUZZ (distributing the CPU threats by BUZZ to efficiency cores?) resulting in stuttering or so, just my naive thinking.

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UNZ
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Re: AMD or Intel

Post by UNZ »

HerrFornit wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:42 am
Concerning to the new Intel CPU design (12000 and 13000) I am wondering if there is any issue handling the diffrent types of cores by BUZZ (distributing the CPU threats by BUZZ to efficiency cores?) resulting in stuttering or so, just my naive thinking.
it's not an unreasonable concern, as no existing software is really fit to deal with this without some adjustments, let alone fully exploit it. intel and microsoft put some effort into their schedulers to prevent most problems but if for some reason the scheduler decides to put your important audio / plugin thread on one of the weaker cores (or worse, bounce it back and forth between p and e cores), that could have some unintended consequences. it's not so much that the e cores are too weak, but the last thing you want in a realtime application is variability in timings. i think schedulers (win11) are smart enough not to do that, but who knows... in any case, to take full advantage of p and e cores you'd have to re-architect a DAW to schedule unimportant work on the e cores and important work on the p cores. and then you still have the problem of dependency chains where work done on p cores might depend on work done on e cores, so you're waiting on the slower core to finish it's work etc... it all gets a bit too complex for my taste, i'd prefer if they did away with this nonsense, especially as it prevented AVX512 making it into 12 and 13 gen (the e cores don't support it so they disabled it in the p cores too, so stupid. i got an 11th gen just for AVX512). the "easy" option is to constrain e cores to just do OS tasks and not even bother using them for your DAW, but that also seems a bit underwhelming... can't really comment much beyond this, as i don't plan on buying a CPU with e cores in the next few years, so i have no idea how much you can really control all of this when writing code or if you're completely at the mercy of the schedulers.... i have little desire to find out...

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temporalsounds
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Re: AMD or Intel

Post by temporalsounds »

Hi HF!
My first requirement to choose some system to build is power consumption.Then I look to :'about using the workstation' what I need to do with that one.
My PC is not running 24/7 of course ,but I'm interested about it.
If you are interested about my power consumption of my AMD Ryzen system :
PC system included 8GB graphic card with :
+two SATA 1TB HDD inside PC system(no SSD)
+one ext.USB HDD 1TB
+one SSD patriot 960 GB
+Nvme SSD 1TB
+ 29 '' display monitor
+M-AUDIO keyboard
+ external sound interface E-MU1616m
+MiniDisc DECK player.
Thats all I have connected to the power without amplifier and subwoofer with this results:
Image
When I start Buzz 32bit DAW with one VST2 plugin (32bit) it takes power about :
Image

If there is another TV in living room takes about 100 W ,in children room another TV with PC, it takes about 200w ,it is 'good' power consumption.

There are many ways to choose the 'right today's platform' indeed.If you choose any of them ,there will be a lot of performance for Buzz DAW definitelly.
I think the 64bit buzz would work flawesly with 64bit plugins with any platform you choose.
EDIT:
AMD vs Intel in 2022

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UNZ
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Re: AMD or Intel

Post by UNZ »

hehe, i'm the complete opposite, my cpu (11900k) + gpu (3080ti) alone can draw up to ~700w when fully loaded, and my pc stays on 24/7. good thing you're compensating for my sins.

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temporalsounds
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Re: AMD or Intel

Post by temporalsounds »

UNZ wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:31 pm
good thing you're compensating for my sins.
:D :D hehe, welcome !

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HerrFornit
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Re: AMD or Intel

Post by HerrFornit »

Hey Temporalsounds,
yes, I am interested indeed. ;) thanx. Powerconsumption is increasing :ugeek: by cpu generations, although the power per watt is still decreasing. As I remember my xeon 1230v3 needs similar watt as your sytem under hi performance. untervoltet -0.12 V by the way, gives minus 10 degree or so. Actually its still sufficient for buzzing in most cases, I am intereated in the new technology. Perhaps Oskari has to bring out a windows 11 version of buzz.

@UNZ so you are using a nvidia card. There are some reports in the net that amd cards work better for daw? Or was it the opposite round. What do you think?

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UNZ
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Re: AMD or Intel

Post by UNZ »

GPU brand shouldn't matter for a DAW in general. BUT: nowadays there are efforts to move plugins to GPU processing (for example https://www.gpu.audio/) and from what i can see is that everyone always starts developing in NV and only later ports to AMD and Intel etc. Also CUDA is NV exclusive, so some might not even support any other brand. I think in general NV still has the edge, i bet AMD drivers are still sub-par...

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HerrFornit
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Re: AMD or Intel

Post by HerrFornit »

that GPU audio approach is fascinating. Unfortunately my Radeon 7790 is not supported..

OK. Actually it looks like this. If you use buzz as daw you have to use windows 10, because there is no windows 11 version of buzz. w11 is needed for scheduler. then its probably better not to have Alder Lake p+e cores!? then ryzen 7900x with 12 cores fully supported by buzz is optimum (max 12 cores usable in buzz)? or Rocket Lake. not comcerning about pricing of course ;)

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UNZ
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Re: AMD or Intel

Post by UNZ »

buzz works fine on win11, same as on win10

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temporalsounds
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Re: AMD or Intel

Post by temporalsounds »

HerrFornit wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:00 am
If you use buzz as daw you have to use windows 10, because there is no windows 11 version of buzz. w11 is needed for scheduler. then its probably better not to have Alder Lake p+e cores!? then ryzen 7900x with 12 cores fully supported by buzz is optimum (max 12 cores usable in buzz)? or Rocket Lake...
Hmm,I wouldn't say 'there is no windows 11 of Buzz'...
Like UNZ said above,it most depends, how will windows sheduler divide the tasks for the app for each right core.
I don't know if I draw it right,some one will correct me,if I'm wrong please.
This can be wrong,it is just very simple drawn.
Image

this is just how I understand it.It can be wrong !!!!!!!!
EDIT: I forget to draw threads of CPU :D
EDIT2 : p vs e cores

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