Will Buzz ever go commercial/get updated?

[UNZ]

It could be done by adding a new parameter group where a machine (in this case the polac adapter) can add/remove parameters runtime.

YES PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mosis]

Just to give you an idea of where FL Studio was about 14-15 years ago:

http://www.pcrecording.com/fruityloops.htm

Just look at how much more advanced it is now, and how much more successful.

[AndersBrontosaurus]

How about phrasing it like this?

"Would you pay for keeping Buzz freeware?"

[ags]

Just to give you an idea of where FL Studio was about 14-15 years ago

Clue : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image-Line#Staff

[UNZ]

Just to give you an idea of where FL Studio was about 14-15 years ago.

same shit as 15 years ago, made by the same assholes as 15 years ago (who stole buzz machines).
stop taking FL as an example, if you knew anything about buzz history you wouldn't bring this up as a good example.
FL and Imageline can rot in hell.

[Tiadiad]

Yes, I would pay for Buzz if it went commercial. That would also spell a different lifestyle for Oskari as it would become a business. The bottom line is that we all love Buzz here, and we all would also love to see more features. That would save time from bouncing back and forth between different DAWs. More features = time spent making them and then all the support, etc. Something has to give. As far as I am concerned, I would love for Oskari to focus on Buzz, get a crew of geniuses and make the best DAW MOTHER FUCKING EVER, but that goes against the whole free is free thing (ahem), and also that's assuming that Oskari would want to do that, I'm sure the man has a life.

[sleepzzz]

This has been brought up so many times before on forums over the years. It's hard to expect a big commercial amount of work on a program made by (mostly) one person in his spare time. Oskari, for his own reasons, has kept it freeware and done thousands of hours of work on it, without really asking anything from the userbase. I know you have high hopes and ideas but seeing the state of Buzz over the past decade will make this understandable.
Renoise has several devs, getting paid to work on a for-pay software. The userbase can and should have different expectations, since they are sending money for their license. People post suggestions on here, but it doesn't mean Oskari is frantically coding away to please everyone (the Renoise devs aren't,either, heh). It's his software and he's taken it the direction he's wanted to at his pace. Maybe he will integrate some things in the future (like what is discussed in this thread already), but it's easier to sit back, use the software and see where it goes.

I know you might feel upset about certain things or feel such-and-such feature might end your DAW search forever, and I've felt the same way myself. I've many times considered emailing and bribing/offering some dev $$$ to add one thing to a program I was using, but it's just impatience with the process or the fact that life gets in the way of coding and some people don't continue forever on a project. I guess time will tell. I started using Buzz in 2002 and still it is my #1 music software over anything else (even if I am terrible at using it). Having used it during the many years it was not worked on after the crash, thinking it would never be updated again and having to use OverLoader 1.5 (and being happy with that),.... Buzz's improvements since 2008 are still amazing to me, and if Oskari never worked on the program again from this last update, I'd still be using it over anything else.

Perhaps this Redux program + Buzz might satisfy a thing or two for the people that want Buzz for like Renoise and Renoise like Buzz.

[sleepzzz]

Okay - how about this. Wouldn't it be good if Oskari, (together with Polac if necessary), developed a new version of Buzz that had built in VST support, and could (obviously) play samples in the tracker, and that was it. No old Buzz generators or effects,.

Buzz Machines minus Buzz Machines equals.... every other daw or tracker?

[mosis]

Just to give you an idea of where FL Studio was about 14-15 years ago

Clue : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image-Line#Staff

Umm... that isn't where Image Line was 14-15 years ago, is it...

Obviously a successful company is going to take on more staff... Do you think they started off with that many staff at the beginning of Fruity Loops?

[mosis]

Just to give you an idea of where FL Studio was about 14-15 years ago.

same shit as 15 years ago, made by the same assholes as 15 years ago (who stole buzz machines).
stop taking FL as an example, if you knew anything about buzz history you wouldn't bring this up as a good example.
FL and Imageline can rot in hell.

So they "stole buzz machines". How many FL Studio users use Buzz machines? 1%? If that?
It doesn't matter whether Image Line are "assholes", the purpose of using them as an example was to show Oskari that what started as a small, unsuccessful piece of software, has grown into a huge, very successful piece of software. That's it. Everything else is completely irrelevant as far as my example goes.

[mosis]

Okay - how about this. Wouldn't it be good if Oskari, (together with Polac if necessary), developed a new version of Buzz that had built in VST support, and could (obviously) play samples in the tracker, and that was it. No old Buzz generators or effects,.

Buzz Machines minus Buzz Machines equals.... every other daw or tracker?

No, because it's the INTERFACE of Buzz that really makes it so special. I can use VSTs in any DAW or tracker, but none of them are as easy to use and lay out a song with, as Buzz. And they never will be, because they refuse to implement the simple design that Oskari invented. Which is good, because that means he has a monopoly on his invention, which he deserves.

[mosis]

Yes, I would pay for Buzz if it went commercial. That would also spell a different lifestyle for Oskari as it would become a business. The bottom line is that we all love Buzz here, and we all would also love to see more features. That would save time from bouncing back and forth between different DAWs. More features = time spent making them and then all the support, etc. Something has to give. As far as I am concerned, I would love for Oskari to focus on Buzz, get a crew of geniuses and make the best DAW MOTHER FUCKING EVER, but that goes against the whole free is free thing (ahem), and also that's assuming that Oskari would want to do that, I'm sure the man has a life.

I would presume that if (IF) Oskari decided to make Buzz commercial, he would be willing to spend more time improving it, because he would know that (hopefully) he was going to make a decent amount of money when he released the commercial version, and if it became really successful and took up more of his time, he would be able to work on it full time, and earn a lot more than he currently is. But then I don't know how much he earns for his day job, so maybe it's not viable for him to make Buzz commercial.
I don't think he needs anybody else to help him make the commercial version (except maybe White Tie or another designer to make a cool looking interface, which would really help to sell it).
As far as support goes - that's what forums are for. You report bugs on the forum for Oskari to read and deal with as he sees fit, everything else you ask for on the forum, and we can all between us produce an updated Buzz manual, and that's it.

[UNZ]

It doesn't matter whether Image Line are "assholes". Everything else is completely irrelevant as far as my example goes.

As far as YOUR example goes, yes....
My point was you're essentally saying "do as those people did, (those that the buzz community came to hate long ago), and you'll be so much more successfull / happy / rich (whatever)". What you REALLY want to say is tough: "i want feature x/y, PLZ MAKE IT NOW."
I would never use imageline / FL "success" as something to strive for with buzz tbh. It's a toy for kids, while buzz is for us grown ups

I have a feeling that oskari already knows (after 15 years) what he wants buzz to be. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but this discussion has surfaced time and time again since 1997 and buzz never went commercial. The most troubling years for buzz (appart from the hard drive crash) imho where a direct result of the dissatisfaction of machine developers over the licensing of buzzmachines in FL. So there you have it, the only time (something close to) making buzz "commercial" was tried, it ended in a disaster...

I also think the various developers who still write machines and work on the buzz GUI know why they do it, but i think its pretty clear nobody does it for the money. You'd have to not only pay oskari, but a whole team of (good == expensive) developers (to achieve something as polished/ feature rich as renoise). Do you honestly think we'd all quit our jobs on spot because you and 4 other people promise to buy a 200$ buzz license ?

Look, i don't know what you try to achieve here, but it sounds like you should just wait for redux to come out, then you can use advanced tracking / instrument features of renoise combined with the great sequencer concept that buzz has. Best of both worlds, i'm actually intrigued by it too. You can also just load FL as VST into buzz (but shall burn in hell for it hehe) if thats what you want.

Also, as oskari mentioned, the new pattern editor is in the works too, and from what i've seen of it is very promising.

Buzz is raw and unpolished, no question, but i suggest you focus on actually pointing out what your problem with buzz is instead of dreaming about all the advantages that a commercial release would supposedly give us (which i don't quite "buy" (get it?)). So far you've mentioned a better skin, hmm well, more theming ain't going to make buzz much better/usable for me tbh, just... prettier, maybe.

[mosis]

It doesn't matter whether Image Line are "assholes". Everything else is completely irrelevant as far as my example goes.

As far as YOUR example goes, yes....

So you're saying that because you can't face reality, and dislike Image Line, I can't use FL Studio as an example to make my point? Okay then - ANY other successful DAW, how about that? They all started off from nothing, none of them were overnight successes, is that okay with you? Sheesh.

My point was you're essentally saying "do as those people did, (those that the buzz community came to hate long ago), and you'll be so much more successfull / happy / rich (whatever)". What you REALLY want to say is tough: "i want feature x/y, PLZ MAKE IT NOW."

Wow. A strawman AND ad hominem fallacy in one paragraph. What I "REALLY want to say"...
What I said is written above. Anything else is purely in your mind.

I would never use imageline / FL "success" as something to strive for with buzz tbh. It's a toy for kids, while buzz is for us grown ups

Their balance sheet is what matters. FL Studio isn't a toy for kids, what gave you that idea?

But as much as you try to influence all this, it will never be your decision to do something (or nothing) with buzz,

The usual nonsense. More strawman arguments. My merely SUGGESTING an idea on a forum, is somehow trying to influence Oskari, and I don't realise that it isn't my decision, apparently. So you set up more strawmen arguments (that I think it somehow IS my decision) and then proceed to knock them down. Methinks my arguments ARE too convincing for you, and for some reason you don't like that...

and i have a feeling that oskari already knows (after 15 years) what he wants buzz to be. I don't want to put words in his mouth,

LOL

but this discussion has surfaced time and time again since 1997 and buzz never went commercial. The most troubling years for buzz (appart from the hard drive crash) imho where a direct result of the dissatisfaction of machine developers over the licensing of buzzmachines in FL. So there you have it, the only time (something close to) making buzz "commercial" was tried, it ended in a disaster...

That was nothing to do with making BUZZ commercial, was it? It was to do with the MACHINES. Two totally different things - Oskari owns Buzz, he doesn't own the machines.
Yet again you set up a strawman argument. No wonder you can't stand what I'm suggesting, you seem incapable of dealing with reality, and instead choose to make up fantasies.

Look, i don't know what you try to achieve here,

Just read what I've written in this thread, it's not complicated.

but it sounds like you should just wait for redux to come out, then you can use advanced tracking / instrument features of renoise combined with the great sequencer concept that buzz has. Best of both worlds, i'm actually intrigued by it too.

What you mean "I'm actually intrigued by it TOO"... LOL. You obviously think you're a mindreader. I'm not remotely interested in using Redux, in Buzz or otherwise.

Also, as oskari mentioned, the new pattern editor is in the works too, and from what i've seen of it is very promising.

Well, aren't you the lucky one. How does that negate ANYTHING I've suggested above, about making Buzz commercial?

[mosis]

ps How many current users of FL Studio do you think use Buzz machines in it?

[UNZ]

ps How many current users of FL Studio do you think use Buzz machines in it?

Who cares, we use Buzz and not FL. So what's your point again ?
I use what i think is good, not what everyone else thinks is good.
The reason to include buzz machines was never because they where exceptionally good but to suppress a competitor...

Could Buzz be better ?
Yes

Does it have to be commercial to be better ?
Who knows...

I still don't know what you want, making buzz commercial won't solve any of the problems i have with buzz automagically. Maybe it would, or maybe it would spoil buzz for me (if it ends up like FL, no thx). As i said 2 years ago (holy fuck how long do you want to troll this shit) i would pay for it if i like it, and there's a donate button on the website anyway.

Apparently what you DON'T want is realistic suggestions and ideas on how you could have what you want, right now, without trying to coax us into doing something because you want us to. I think what you don't understand is that i don't give a shit if you (or anyone else) want to use buzz or not, thats ONE advantage when you don't go commercial

[Tiadiad]

Buzz help us all...FOR THE LOVE OF BUZZ COULD WE ALL JUST GET ALONG? Hehhehe

[mosis]

This has been brought up so many times before on forums over the years. It's hard to expect a big commercial amount of work on a program made by (mostly) one person in his spare time. Oskari, for his own reasons, has kept it freeware and done thousands of hours of work on it, without really asking anything from the userbase. I know you have high hopes and ideas but seeing the state of Buzz over the past decade will make this understandable.
Renoise has several devs, getting paid to work on a for-pay software. The userbase can and should have different expectations, since they are sending money for their license. People post suggestions on here, but it doesn't mean Oskari is frantically coding away to please everyone (the Renoise devs aren't,either, heh). It's his software and he's taken it the direction he's wanted to at his pace. Maybe he will integrate some things in the future (like what is discussed in this thread already), but it's easier to sit back, use the software and see where it goes.

I really, really can't understand how your mind works...
In the paragraph above, you state the obvious and then set up strawmen arguments.
1) Where did I ever say I was expecting a big commercial amount of work on a program made by one person in his spare time? Did I not explain it simply enough? I said - if Buzz went commercial, then Oskari might be able to devote more time to it, as he would be earning much more money from it.
2) Yes, Renoise is pay for software, and thus has several devs now. If we were paying for Buzz, we'd have different expectations. And?
Who suggested Oskari was frantically coding to please everyone, or even that he should?

There are just so many misunderstandings and logical fallacies in that one paragraph I can't comprehend it.

I know you might feel upset about certain things or feel such-and-such feature might end your DAW search forever, and I've felt the same way myself. I've many times considered emailing and bribing/offering some dev $$$ to add one thing to a program I was using, but it's just impatience with the process or the fact that life gets in the way of coding and some people don't continue forever on a project. I guess time will tell. I started using Buzz in 2002 and still it is my #1 music software over anything else (even if I am terrible at using it). Having used it during the many years it was not worked on after the crash, thinking it would never be updated again and having to use OverLoader 1.5 (and being happy with that),.... Buzz's improvements since 2008 are still amazing to me, and if Oskari never worked on the program again from this last update, I'd still be using it over anything else.

If Oskari were to do a Kickstarter campaign, he could say what features he was going to add, what work he was going to do, and then IF enough people signed up for his target price, he would know that he was going to get X amount of money, for X amount of work, and could then safely go ahead with going commercial, and who knows where Buzz could be in just a few years' time.

Perhaps this Redux program + Buzz might satisfy a thing or two for the people that want Buzz for like Renoise and Renoise like Buzz.

No, it won't. It has nothing to offer Buzz users.

[elekt]

42 75 7A 7A

(Edit: typos)

[esp81]

Are you by any chance "XG2003" on the Renoise forums?

Aah, I see... I've just owned you in this thread and so you seek to 'bait and switch'... well done.

wow, seriously? seek help man.