Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

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Joachip
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Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

Post by Joachip »

I still haven't found a solution to this problem, but I've just realized that it does not happen when using the same 64 bit plugin in 32 bit Samplitude. So perhaps this is actually a PVST specific problem?

https://www.robotplanet.dk/f/buzzf/Valh ... d_PVST.mp4

It also happens in other 64-bit plugins. I've just chosen this one as an example because it's free and simple.
Does anyone else experience this?

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thOke
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Re: Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

Post by thOke »

A workaround is described here:

viewtopic.php?p=14977#p14977

polac
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Re: Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

Post by polac »

Yes can reproduce it here, I guess it can be fixed by disable "embedded gui" in the bridge settings. I know there are some problems with plugins done with the JUCE framework.
Last edited by polac on Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

polac
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Re: Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

Post by polac »

it does not happen when using the same 64 bit plugin in 32 bit Samplitude
Most likely Samplitude does not embed a window of another process into another parent window and just opens a new popup window, who knows?

River Cricket
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Re: Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

Post by River Cricket »

polac wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 8:07 pm
Yes can reproduce it here, I guess it can be fixed by disable "embedded gui" in the vst3shell settings. I know there are some problems with plugins done with the JUCE framework.
As described in this JUCE thread, it seems if pVST could refrain from setting WS_CHILD, then - at least theoretically - JUCE popups would work without requiring the mild irritation of separating the VST GUI from the pVST functions menu. Technically (as is pointed out in that thread) this is poor form for Win_32 API, but "perfect", "enemy of the good", etc etc.

Of course, the ideal solution would be for JUCE to fix this bug that's been on their radar for three years, but...

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Joachip
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Re: Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

Post by Joachip »

polac wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 8:07 pm
Yes can reproduce it here, I guess it can be fixed by disable "embedded gui" in the vst3shell settings. I know there are some problems with plugins done with the JUCE framework.
Disabling "Embedded GUI" leaves me in a situation where I cannot close the VST UI once it's been opened.

I don't know if it's possible or if you have the time & energy, but if you make a hack solution to the problem in JUCE, i would be happy to beta test it.

The worst thing is: JUCE is really common it seems, when I look at the plugins I have installed. I even use it for my own plugins! :oops:

River Cricket
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Re: Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

Post by River Cricket »

Joachip wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:59 pm
polac wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 8:07 pm
Yes can reproduce it here, I guess it can be fixed by disable "embedded gui" in the vst3shell settings. I know there are some problems with plugins done with the JUCE framework.
Disabling "Embedded GUI" leaves me in a situation where I cannot close the VST UI once it's been opened.
Yeah, it's a bit clunky. You have to close the PVST window, which is usually placed behind the VST GUI. Sometimes, though, the PVST window will close but leave the VST GUI open. This also happens if you remove the PVST machine while the VST GUI is still active.

Another issue with disabling embedded GUI is that if you attempt to open the embedding-disabled VST GUI while a "regular" / embedding-enabled VST GUI is currently visible, Buzz will "hang" for about 30-60 seconds. Audio will continue to function, but everything else Buzz-related will be completely unresponsive. Problem only manifests if the VST GUI currently visible is standard, if the currently visible VST is also embedded-disabled then everything functions normally.
Joachip wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:59 pm
I don't know if it's possible or if you have the time & energy, but if you make a hack solution to the problem in JUCE, i would be happy to beta test it.
+1 to this!
Joachip wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:59 pm
The worst thing is: JUCE is really common it seems, when I look at the plugins I have installed. I even use it for my own plugins! :oops:
Yes! Especially with modern plugins, it feels like about 75% of the stuff coming out is JUCE. Valhalla suite, Tokyo Dawn suite, Vital, even the new Dexed are all JUCE. The worst is when a JUCE synth implements its own QWERTY to piano, which is always inferior to the PVST QWERTY to piano (seriously, if some crazy person came out with a velocity/aftertouch QWERTY keyboard, I think I'd prefer it to any other controller out there, thanks to PVST :lol: ).

JUCE synths that have their own QWERTY require you to click the little PVST window to actually use the PVST QWERTY, which can be tricky to remember in the heat of the moment when jamming out a new patch.


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mcbpete
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Re: Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

Post by mcbpete »

That's great news - Though presumably it'll only be fixed for those JUCE plugins where/if the author decides to recompile their plugins using this new framework version

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Joachip
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Re: Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

Post by Joachip »

That's exactly it. I recently spent 100 EUR on a vst that didn't work in Buzz or Samplitude - my two favorite DAWs at the moment - so that was sort of a bummer. But I think there's a fairly good chance I can have the developer recompile it, because he seems like a really nice guy who always responds to my email, so that's at least something.

But this will certainly be an issue that's gonna linger and cause trouble for a lot of people in years to come.

polac
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Re: Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

Post by polac »

Disabling "Embedded GUI" leaves me in a situation where I cannot close the VST UI once it's been opened.
Yes, you cannot directly close the vst window, you have to close the small window with the pvst logo.
This also happens if you remove the PVST machine while the VST GUI is still active.
Hmm, i thought i fixed this with the latest update, it should close too.
Another issue with disabling embedded GUI is that if you attempt to open the embedding-disabled VST GUI while a "regular" / embedding-enabled VST GUI is currently visible, Buzz will "hang" for about 30-60 seconds. Audio will continue to function, but everything else Buzz-related will be completely unresponsive. Problem only manifests if the VST GUI currently visible is standard, if the currently visible VST is also embedded-disabled then everything functions normally.
Did not happen here yet, have to test more as it seems. :mrgreen:

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Re: Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

Post by polac »

Ok now could reproduce the gui hangs, i'll investigate.

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Re: Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

Post by polac »

Ok now could reproduce the gui hangs, i'll investigate.
A quick fix: enable "run as dedicated process" in the bridge settings.

polac
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Re: Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

Post by polac »

Another issue with disabling embedded GUI is that if you attempt to open the embedding-disabled VST GUI while a "regular" / embedding-enabled VST GUI is currently visible, Buzz will "hang" for about 30-60 seconds. Audio will continue to function, but everything else Buzz-related will be completely unresponsive. Problem only manifests if the VST GUI currently visible is standard, if the currently visible VST is also embedded-disabled then everything functions normally.
The odd thing is that it doesn't happen with every plugin combination. For example Oberhausen(embedded) and Thorn(not embedded) works, whereas Oberhausen and Surge does not work.
Sometimes, though, the PVST window will close but leave the VST GUI open
It's plugin dependant as it seems, can it reproduce with the demo of Icarus here(always happening here), I have lots to do as it seems. I have to say debugging the 64bit bridge is quite bothersome, so it will take some time.

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Joachip
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Re: Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

Post by Joachip »

Thanks for looking into this. I wonder if this page may hold a clue to a good work-around. I have a feeling this is a problem specific to JUCE:

https://github.com/juce-framework/JUCE/issues/401
FL Studio, while it can have embedded, bridged plugins, has a workaround; they don't set the WS_CHILD style on their VST wrapper window when embedding. Thus, while the plugin is embedded as a child of FL, Windows recognises it as a separate top-level window for the purposes of GetForegroundWindow and so the above code works as intended.
Maybe you could simply do the same work-around?

polac
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Re: Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

Post by polac »

Another issue with disabling embedded GUI is that if you attempt to open the embedding-disabled VST GUI while a "regular" / embedding-enabled VST GUI is currently visible, Buzz will "hang" for about 30-60 seconds. Audio will continue to function, but everything else Buzz-related will be completely unresponsive. Problem only manifests if the VST GUI currently visible is standard, if the currently visible VST is also embedded-disabled then everything functions normally.
Ok i think i fixed the bug, it is working fine so far, i will update in the next days after some testing.
Last edited by polac on Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

Post by polac »

Joachip wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:32 pm
Thanks for looking into this. I wonder if this page may hold a clue to a good work-around. I have a feeling this is a problem specific to JUCE:

https://github.com/juce-framework/JUCE/issues/401
FL Studio, while it can have embedded, bridged plugins, has a workaround; they don't set the WS_CHILD style on their VST wrapper window when embedding. Thus, while the plugin is embedded as a child of FL, Windows recognises it as a separate top-level window for the purposes of GetForegroundWindow and so the above code works as intended.
Maybe you could simply do the same work-around?
I'll take a look, thanks for the info.

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Re: Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

Post by polac »

polac wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:44 pm
Joachip wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:32 pm
Thanks for looking into this. I wonder if this page may hold a clue to a good work-around. I have a feeling this is a problem specific to JUCE:

https://github.com/juce-framework/JUCE/issues/401
FL Studio, while it can have embedded, bridged plugins, has a workaround; they don't set the WS_CHILD style on their VST wrapper window when embedding. Thus, while the plugin is embedded as a child of FL, Windows recognises it as a separate top-level window for the purposes of GetForegroundWindow and so the above code works as intended.
Maybe you could simply do the same work-around?
I'll take a look, thanks for the info.
Ok leaving out the WS_CHILD flag did the trick! Works at least with the TAL synths here, big thanks for the tip Joachip.

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mcbpete
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Re: Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

Post by mcbpete »

That's great news - Thank you both :)

polac
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Re: Flickering drop-down menus in PVST & 64-bit VST2 plugins

Post by polac »

The missing WS_CHILD flag breaks the ctrl+alt menu for bridge settings in juce plugins, it won't popup anymore unless you open a dropdown menu, odd. In this case you have to do your bridge settings in the loader preferences(run as seperate process->options button).

Edit: Found a workaround which works, so never mind.

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